Warning: opinions that happen to be factually correct
On February 5, 2023, I posted a couple of silly Hajime no Ippo infographics to Tumblr that highlight the shippy aspects I like about the series, with a focus on Takamura/Kamogawa, a ship I've been into for many years but never really found fans of in English or Spanish circles. This was my casual attempt at peddling this ship to the general public.
Reactions were surprisingly positive. I received the following tag comment in one reblog:
#counting takamura as an old man hurts a lot #tho i guess technically he would be if the series was in 2023 rn 😂
This lighthearted post shook me to my core... No, of course Takamura is not an old man (by my standards, although counting in the passage of time in the story and measured against a boxer's active career ruler I guess he might be through a technicality). The actual old man aspect of the yaoi is right there next to him. Kamogawa is what makes this ship old man yaoi.
The comment didn't upset me, but it did stick with me because of the reading of my doodle, which I thought was clear enough. It was one of many things that finally made me notice the large wall of misunderstanding between me and other old man yaoi enthusiasts. And so, I write this text to try and clear up what I mean when I say I'm a fan of old man yaoi.
First draft written on January 2, 2024, after voting on Fubroshi's "How old must an old man be to qualify for OLD MAN YAOI????" poll on blorbo.social.
CLEARING UP TERMS
Old?
The most contested aspect of this concept, it seems. When I joined Citrus Con 2023, I tried to be more talkative than I had been in other virtual cons I had visited, and became invested in "The Lot Out Back" section of the convention's Discord, where con goers suggested themes that would get turned into threads. It was an area of the Discord where one could find a niche topic and chat for hours with like-minded fans. I suggested the channel "Old Man Uke", which was given this description:
For anyone who loves to see the hot mature 40+yo old man character be the bottom for a change! Warnings: Age gap of all sizes eyebrow wiggles
I was happy to see a lot of people participating in the channel, even though their definitions of old men were not exactly what I had pictured. People in fanish spaces are very loose about the definition of "old man".
So what is an old man? Formal definitions of old age vary from country to country as they are affected by sociocultural, economic and other such factors. This lens has more to do on how useful a person might be to society. The general idea is that an old person has gone past the height of maturity and their physical, mental and emotional constitution are now in decline. Of course, there's also the fact that the passage of time doesn't affect people equally, and there can be frail, creaking people who feel old already at the infant age of 30-something, just as there's 70-something-year-olds that feel like they're still in the springtime of their youth. As for specifics, it seems most countries agree on old age starting somewhere in your 50s. If as an adult you can get a discount in public transportation, or can apply for a free entrance ticket at a museum... Congratulations, you're old!
Man?
Man. A guy who is not young enough to be called a boy. That about sums it up.
I would like to use this section of the page to point out that the "man" part about "old man yaoi" is in singular form. This is the part that the comments quoted at the beginning on my takakamo chart made me want to clear up. I don't think old man yaoi is a term reserved for shipping that involves two (or more) old men. I would call that old men yaoi! As long as there's one (1) old man involved in the process, the material fits the term just fine.
But if I am to claim that only one old man is needed for the media to be old man yaoi, an issue arises when taking into account romantic and erotic media that involves one old man character and one young character, which I suspect might be partially why people assume or expect the old man yaoi to be about an equally old pair. A lot of media involving characters with a significant age gap has a focus on the younger character being the object of desire, both of the viewer and of the older character. Because of the power dynamics that stain relationships with significant age gaps, and because of that desire for the younger character, it also usually means that the older character is given a dominant role, a role that allows them to possess the younger character, often interpreted as the older character being a dom d*ddy or top.
Yes, that is a problem when the person seeking hot old man sex isn't interested in younger bodies, isn't it? This is why I believe that the essence of old man yaoi demands that the old man be the bottom.
(This understanding is not set in stone of course, and I have to acknowledge that there's people who fantasize about the old man character in a way that means he will possess them. But even in this situation I think my interpretation holds up. You are not desiring a young body, but you are still the young body that wishes to be desired.)
Yaoi?
Yaoi is a term that popularly refers to media depicting homosexual relationships between men, assumed to have a female target audience. It originates from self-published comics culture in Japan, where aspiring manga artists working in doujinshi circles coined the term from the phrase 「ヤマもオチも意味もない」 as an in-joke of sorts in response to the harsh criticisms received from magazine editors. It's worth noting that the term didn't specify homosexual relationships in its conception, and some people believe that the term doesn't necessarily describe the gender of the characters involved, but the type of relationship they share (authors Shion Miura and Fumi Yoshinaga, of Run With the Wind and What Did You Eat Yesterday? fame respectively, discuss this in the book 『よしながふみ対談集 あのひととここだけのおしゃべり』).
I like yaoi. It's a flexible term originating from a place that shows a sort of resistance against rules that try to dictate what can and can't have a chance at publishing. 45 years since its inception, I still see friends that I met in shipping-loving circles have their spirits broken by editors, teachers, and employers in art-related businesses. I'm not against the use of Boys Love, I use it sometimes in conversation and when categorizing my own works, but I don't agree with the kind of upturned nose energy some people who use BL (and mlm, and other such terms) expell when they talk about yaoi. I appreciate the sort of popularity "old man yaoi" was able to achieve despite the disdain yaoi seems to attract in English-speaking spaces nowadays. I've even seen Asian rot people show an appreciation for it!
Let's continue weaving stories that make people mad because they find them meaningless. Even though to us, they mean quite a lot.
OLD MAN YAOI
Then, what is old man yaoi to me? Old man yaoi is media involving one or more old characters and their intense relationships. Old man yaoi needs to involve at least one character well over the age of 40, at the very least. The old man character is the focus of my yaoi, and so, the old man character must be an uke.
Parenthood does not an old man make. A suit does not an old man make. A doomer perspective on life born from the suffocating weight of being another cog in the machine called capitalism does not an old man make. Gray hair does not an old man make, though it is very sexy. Do not be confused by these traits, they are cheap tricks to try and sell you false idols. The old man character must be soaked in the burdensome pain of living, both in body and soul (though in a fantasy context, I can be forced to tolerate the spirit being the only part showing its age).
Old man yaoi is tastiest to me when the old man character is coveted, especially when it's by a younger character. The age gap doesn't need to be large, but I enjoy distance very much, and there's no harder distance to overcome than that of life experience.
DEFINING VIA EXAMPLES
I'm not one to try and police other people's enjoyment of things, except for when I do it in private, fuming and gritting my teeth into dust while I talk my friends' ears off after seeing a ship in the wrong order or an old anime man I think is an uke get called a dom d*ddy or something. If you think your ship is an old man ship, that's your truth, and I support you. Let's yaoi in our own way. This here is just a way to exemplify the sentiments expressed so far in this text with ships that I love.
First, let's look at my current OTPs to see what is and isn't old man yaoi.
► MOBREI (Shigeo Kageyama/Arataka Reigen from Mob Psycho 100)
A ship involving a 14-year-old middle schooler and his 28-year-old part-time employer. Their age gap is quite significant, double Mob's current age. That makes Reigen quite older than Mob, and on top of that, he's a working adult and has been for a little while, compared to Mob, who is still receiving his basic education.
This is NOT an old man yaoi ship. Reigen himself might express that he feels old at times, especially in the presence of all the kids he often looks after (and exploits), but he has not even reached his thirties, outside of working contexts his life experience is limited, especially socially, and he is of course, not physically old at all.
► SOUWOZ (Sougo Tokiwa/Woz from Kamen Rider Zi-O)
A ship involving an 18-year-old high schooler (later a 19-year-old NEET) and his retainer who hails from the future. There's no confirmation of Woz's age, and though the data page for the character lists him as human, I have my doubts about that fact. On top of things, he's a time traveler that doesn't seem to adhere to the laws of time and space, further complicating age speculations.
This is NOT an old man yaoi ship. Woz's actor played the role when he was 25 years old, and even if the character might be older than he looks, the ambiguity plus the youthfulness of his actor disqualifies him from my old man standards. There's omawoz, a ship containing the same characters, except instead of Sougo as we know him, it's his future persona, a ruthless 68-year-old king. This ship is also NOT old man yaoi, because, well... I don't reverse this ship, and Sougo is the top, so... Ohma Zi-O is an old man seme. Sigh. Since the old man character is not the object of my lust, this ship is disqualified.
► MOSHANG (Mobei-Jun/Shang Qinghua from The Scum Villain's Self-Saving System)
A ship involving a demon of unknown age and his human servant of about 30 years old. There's near to no canonical ages provided for the characters in this novel, but Mobei-Jun and Shang Qinghua are assumed to be around the same age. Except, Shang Qinghua has already lived once before, for at least 20 years, before he was reborn in the world the novel takes place in.
This is NOT an old man yaoi ship. Airplane might be carrying with him at least 50 years of struggling through life, but he was reborn, so even though he remembered his old life, a good chunk of his life after transmigration was spent experiencing growing up again. Brain development as a child, hormonal imbalances as a teenager... These affect the way you experience living, so I don't think the present-time Shang Qinghua can really boast the maturity of a half centenarian.
► AMUSHA (Amuro Ray/Char Aznable from the Gundam franchise)
A ship involving a 15-year-old civilian-turned-child-soldier and his 20-year-old battlefield rival. Although their age gap isn't quite as spicy as many of my other ships, watching Mobile Suit Gundam with the popularity of this ship as one of the only things I knew about the series was quite shocking. Amuro is just baby! He's so small and his psyche is pushed to its limits as he experiences the horrors of war. Who even has time to ship him?! Later, when I watched Mobile Suit Z Gundam, I understood.
This is NOT an old man yaoi ship. Unfortunately, these guys kick the bucket before reaching my minimum age requirements of old man age. But it's okay, I like them this way! Live (piloting your war machine) fast, die young! Ha ha ha (empty laugh).
► TASUYAE (Tasuku/Yael from Lkyt.)
A ship involving a dog-like 20-year-old soldier and the cynical 28-year-old swordsman from a distant land that he bonds with. Though Tasuku and Yael's ages are both within the same decade, a core aspect of their story revolves around the wide gap between their views on life, living, death, war, and relationships. Tasuku's culture nurtures a self-sacrificing personality in him and his fellow soldiers, but at the same time, the isolationist mentality of his country makes Tasuku a childish man in the eyes of Yael, someone who has suffered through realities Tasuku had never even considered before getting to know him.
This is NOT an old man yaoi ship. However, the interactions between both characters reflect a certain flavor of old man yaoi. Yael pays no mind to age or rank, and treats everyone with the same sarcastic pragmatism. When it comes to Tasuku, he constantly old-man-zones himself, calling and treating him like a brat, not taking Tasuku seriously whether he speaks of his ideals or his affection towards Yael. Although 28 is far too young for me to call Yael an old man character, the narrative of his route is shaped in a way that gives him a certain old man flavoring when pitted against Tasuku, whose yapping puppy ways come out to shine when he's with the older man.
Wow, that's 0 out of 5. What kind of old man yaoi connosieur am I? Faker, this writer is a faker!
To be honest, I don't engage with my old man ships as often as I'd like to because it's hard to find buddies, and though I do spend most of my shipping time with only my own drawings and musings as sustenance, it can be a bit lonely. The ships above are the ones that have gripped me in with their claws the strongest in the past few years, some of which include characters I've seen people try to pass off as old man yaoi. Rest assured, I have stuff that passes the test to present in front of the class.
► YOUNG/OLD (Ephraim Winslow/Thomas Wake from The Lighthouse)
A ship involving "a new assistant lighthouse keeper with a sordid past", and "a crusty lighhouse keeper. His boss". Descriptions directly taken from the script. No official ages are given in the story, though for reference, Young's actor was 33 years old at the time, while Old's actor was 64. The difference in experience and rank between the characters is exacerbated by Old constantly harassing and mocking Young, as he seems to take glee in having power over someone, even though they're both underpaid government employees enduring sub-par working conditions.
This IS an old man yaoi ship. Age is a big factor in the way the two characters treat each other, and though Old pretends to exploit his seniority to the fullest, the physical power that Young holds over him thanks to his strong, still youthful body makes itself known from the first time Old gets violent with him in a shot that contrasts Old's hunching, shameful body and Young's looming tall shape and fisted hands. Old spends the movie thinning Young's patience, who bears the verbal and physical abuse as well as he can. The tension between them simmers all the way to the point where Young decides to put Old in his place, and the older man crumbles fast in an absurdly erotic power move that involves barking and a leash.
Ship highlights: The whole damn movie!
► TAKAKAMO (Mamoru Takamura/Genji Kamogawa from Hajime no Ippo)
A ship involving a multi-weight class monster of a boxer and his grumpy coach. Hajime no Ippo is a story that spans several years and is initially unclear about when it takes place, so the characters have aged since its beginning. Takamura is somewhere between his twenties and thirties, while Kamogawa is somewhere between his seventies and eighties. Kamogawa scouts a highschooler Takamura while in the middle of a massacre of a brawl, and they've been working on conquering several world belts ever since. Takamura doesn't respect anybody, not even Kamogawa, but he is deeply thankful to the old man for showing him the world of boxing. In his own way of course.
This IS an old man yaoi ship. Kamogawa is old enough to get a post-war sepia-tone flashback arc of his own. Age is an unspoken worry between the two as well, as Kamogawa begins to feel the inevitable effects of old age at some point and it makes him feel like he won't be able to keep up the pace with his boxer. Hell, if Hajime no Ippo keeps going for another decade, Takamura might even count as a second old man.
Ship highlights: Battle of Hawk arc.
► SENSOU (Sento Kiryu/Souichi Isurugi from Kamen Rider Build)
A ship involving an egocentric 26-year-old amnesiac scientist and his easy-going 48-year-old savior-slash-landlord-slash-something-else. Souichi finds Sento in an alleyway, sopping wet from the rain and without any memories, and takes him into his workplace (that is also his home? Unclear on that actually) where he's welcome to stay until he regains his memories. Souichi has a younger daughter and is presented as a bit silly, his inability to make drinkable coffee despite owning a coffee shop a charm point more than a fault.
This IS an old man yaoi ship. If it were up to me, I'd bump up Souichi's age a couple years, but 48 is a perfectly good old man age, especially for this franchise, where older characters don't often get to have a bigger role in the story. There's another ship closely intertwined with this one that I love, but it's fun to see it unfold on your own, so I won't talk about it here.
Ship highlights: Final episode for the brain worms it provided. Why yes, I will exploit the fact that Souichi thinks Sento is his favorite celebrity for my own nefarious yaoi purposes. What a coincidence that in the identity theft game it turns out Sento steals the face of the man that the alien's meat suit has a celebrity crush on. Very curious.
► HEBIGG (Snake/Sverkel from Vinland Saga)
A ship involving a 34-year-old hired sword and his boss's 68-year-old father. Sverkel doesn't seem to hold any power in the farm's affairs, but everyone living in the farm recognizes him as the master's father and leaves him be, probably because of his unapproachable personality. Snake is the leader of the hired swords in charge of protecting Ketil's farm. Although these mercenaries have their own living spaces, Snake is always hanging at Sverkel's home, where he sleeps in his bed and pesters the old man to cook for him. Despite Sverkel's many complaints, Snake is allowed to stay in exchange for Bible reading sessions from a beautiful large tome Sverkel owns but cannot read.
This IS old man yaoi. Absolutely! Being a period piece, Vinland Saga in general has a lot of older characters that are actually a lot younger than they look (looking at you, Askeladd), but Sverkel looks even older than my oldest old man example in this list! Yukimura-sensei cares a lot about depicting his liver spots, his wisps of hair, his gaunt cheeks, his curving back. On top of that, the damage of time begins to show in the shape of incontinence and early displays of dementia. Snake stays around for all of this under the claim that he's waiting for him to die so he can loot him (namely, take the fancy Bible), but it's hard to believe he'd do all that for a book with just how hard to deal Sverkel is. Ah... Stay until the old man passes, Snake, then stay some more.
► OHKAZU (Ohma Tokita/Kazuo Yamashita from Kengan Ashura)
A ship involving a 28-year-old fighter and his 56-year-old manager.
► SOLLYMERA (Soldier/Merasmus from Team Fortress 2)
A ship involving a soldier of unknown age, but probably somewhere in his fifties, and his 6000-year-old witch man roommate.
► KIRIMA (Kazuma Kiryu/Goro Majima from Like a Dragon)
A ship involving a 37-year-old that's just been released from prison and is looking for answers, and the 41-year-old yakuza that keeps harrassing him for a fight. Though they're barely on the edge of disqualification here, the game franchise spans several years where they both reach their fifties.
► SUMITETSU (Sumio Kodai/Tetsugoro Kusabi from The Silver Case)
A ship involving a 26-year-old detective and his close 44-year-old partner.
This page is a WIP! Ship descriptions and perhaps more examples will be added once I finish doing other stuff.
CITATION NEEDED
I sniffed around a bunch of stuff while and after writing this. Here it is if you're curious.
► 仮面ライダー図鑑 An online reference guide for all things rider: riders, forms, characters, monsters, items and terms. Pretty cool!
► Japanese Wikipedia entry for やおい I was initially searching for the phrase yaoi is said to come from, but I was curious about what the Japanese entry for the term would say, and ended up finding neat stuff like the deeper reasoning behind the term.
► ふしぎの国のマンガ描き (ISBN: 978-4309276953) A book by Yasuko Sakata, used as reference for discussion on the coining of the term.
► あのひととここだけのおしゃべり (ISBN: 978-4778310875) Fumi Yoshinaga's interview book with various authors, used as reference for the concept of yaoi not being a gender-specific genre.
► Yaoi vocabulary rambling Blog post by tempural comparing different terms and giving personal thoughts on the matter. I was going to mention different terms you can find in Japanese circles to specify what kind of uke you're dealing with, even specific old man terms, but I didn't really figure out how to board the subject so I dropped it. Fortunately, tempural's post includes and compares these terms!
► 同人誌「ラヴリ」関連情報まとめ Blog post I stumbled upon while searching the doujin group ラヴリ. This person concludes yaoi does NOT come from the "no story no meaning no punchline" phrase, but from 夜追, although as I understood, the phrase itself was used to describe this work, so... Shrugging emoji. I guess it's an egg and chicken semantics situation.
► Disturbing, Traversing, Borderless, Shaking Sexuality: The Place where Revolutionary Girl Utena was Born Translation of an interview between Kunihiko Ikuhara, anime industry figure of Lily Bear Storm fame, and Mari Kotani, science fiction critic best known for her Evangelion analysis book 『聖母エヴァンゲリオン』. It was linked to me by militarypenguin, who remembered the text after reading this page, specifically for the section titled The Girls' Eros Fantasy: A Negation of Power Structures in Yaoi. Thanks for the link!
► The Lighthouse Screenplay Enjoy some yaoi.
► Straight up just searched "old man" and "tercera edad" a bunch.
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